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	<title>Comments on: A Bounty for Blair&#8217;s Arrest</title>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-47610</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 21:51:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-47610</guid>
		<description>To To FanOfWhackyVorlon again!
Of course, not all ideas at this site necessarily need to be good ideas. This is the way a global Permaculture pattern language must be made up, we must discuss, try, adapt and adjust the patterns, slowly building our new global pattern language. Or rather many global pattern languages, because even this language has a core shared by everyone, there must be cultural and climatic differencies. But it is only with re-creating such a language we can re-create the nature of order, and ultimately reaching Alexander&#039;s vision of a new world.

For me I see this prosess as a process of crushing &quot;the invisible hand&quot; created by Adam Smith, by using &quot;the visible hand&quot; created by Bill Mollison. This means replacing competition with cooperition. Some narrowminded people think this means replacing competition with communism. But NO, it means replacing ALL ideologies with a functional pattern language, a language that brings people in peace with themselves, with each other and with nature. And even we reach this goal one day, we must constantly continue maintaining and always improving this SHARED pattern language. 

This site is a VERY important tool in the process for the creation of this language for the NEW millenium!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To To FanOfWhackyVorlon again!<br />
Of course, not all ideas at this site necessarily need to be good ideas. This is the way a global Permaculture pattern language must be made up, we must discuss, try, adapt and adjust the patterns, slowly building our new global pattern language. Or rather many global pattern languages, because even this language has a core shared by everyone, there must be cultural and climatic differencies. But it is only with re-creating such a language we can re-create the nature of order, and ultimately reaching Alexander&#8217;s vision of a new world.</p>
<p>For me I see this prosess as a process of crushing &#8220;the invisible hand&#8221; created by Adam Smith, by using &#8220;the visible hand&#8221; created by Bill Mollison. This means replacing competition with cooperition. Some narrowminded people think this means replacing competition with communism. But NO, it means replacing ALL ideologies with a functional pattern language, a language that brings people in peace with themselves, with each other and with nature. And even we reach this goal one day, we must constantly continue maintaining and always improving this SHARED pattern language. </p>
<p>This site is a VERY important tool in the process for the creation of this language for the NEW millenium!</p>
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		<title>By: Øyvind Holmstad</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-47609</link>
		<dc:creator>Øyvind Holmstad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 May 2010 21:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-47609</guid>
		<description>To FanOfWhackyVorlon!
I had not time now to read all comments here, but I see you have missed the whole point. Permaculture has NOTHING to do with ideologies, it has developed to a higher level, and is the system needed for a new millenium. For me I grew up in a highly conservative family, everybody running small or medium size business for themselves. Personally I hated communism and all aspects of it from I were 6 months old, it is just after going through a terrorlike building project two years ago I started hateng capitalism equal. Actually, it started with hating entrepreners, first later I realized that a system that could come up with such terrible systems, this I did not wanted to be a part of anymore. And finally I found Permaculture, and I fell in love with what I saw, because I saw here an alternate to both socialism and capitalism as well as all other kinds of ideologies. Because I see no other system or movement that can truly contribute to make our world whole again! See this link: http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To FanOfWhackyVorlon!<br />
I had not time now to read all comments here, but I see you have missed the whole point. Permaculture has NOTHING to do with ideologies, it has developed to a higher level, and is the system needed for a new millenium. For me I grew up in a highly conservative family, everybody running small or medium size business for themselves. Personally I hated communism and all aspects of it from I were 6 months old, it is just after going through a terrorlike building project two years ago I started hateng capitalism equal. Actually, it started with hating entrepreners, first later I realized that a system that could come up with such terrible systems, this I did not wanted to be a part of anymore. And finally I found Permaculture, and I fell in love with what I saw, because I saw here an alternate to both socialism and capitalism as well as all other kinds of ideologies. Because I see no other system or movement that can truly contribute to make our world whole again! See this link: <a href="http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.natureoforder.com/library/a-new-kind-of-world.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-45267</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Mar 2010 15:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-45267</guid>
		<description>Subscribers to this thread might want to take a peek at this:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23817037-revealed-tony-blairs-secret-oil-links-to-middle-east.do</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Subscribers to this thread might want to take a peek at this:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23817037-revealed-tony-blairs-secret-oil-links-to-middle-east.do" rel="nofollow">http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23817037-revealed-tony-blairs-secret-oil-links-to-middle-east.do</a></p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Fischbacher</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-44629</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Fischbacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 20:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-44629</guid>
		<description>Another video that is worth watching: &quot;The power of nightmares&quot; by Adam Curtis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skudTktwnQE

Provides some quite interesting - and, checkable - background data.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another video that is worth watching: &#8220;The power of nightmares&#8221; by Adam Curtis.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skudTktwnQE" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skudTktwnQE</a></p>
<p>Provides some quite interesting &#8211; and, checkable &#8211; background data.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-44613</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:12:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-44613</guid>
		<description>People reading this post and participating in this thread may want to watch this:

http://vimeo.com/5341482</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People reading this post and participating in this thread may want to watch this:</p>
<p><a href="http://vimeo.com/5341482" rel="nofollow">http://vimeo.com/5341482</a></p>
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		<title>By: Carolyn Payne</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-41798</link>
		<dc:creator>Carolyn Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Feb 2010 08:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-41798</guid>
		<description>Do I need to apologise for having dyslexia? Will I fail as a Permaculturist because of this terrible flaw? Will I hide behind a nickname? No, no and no!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do I need to apologise for having dyslexia? Will I fail as a Permaculturist because of this terrible flaw? Will I hide behind a nickname? No, no and no!</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-41595</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Feb 2010 16:26:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-41595</guid>
		<description>Not to labour the point, but this is a perfect example of how NOT getting political impacts on permaculturists:

http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/02/democracy-for-sale-by-the-corporate-citizen/

Although the presidency seems to be little more than a figurehead, it seems sure that there is now next to no chance for anyone to become president who intends to do the right thing. If a candidate intends to work against the corporate, globalised model, billions of dollars to finance the campaign of a more corporate-friendly industry puppet (like oily Bush duo were) will put a stop to it.

If we stand by and do nothing, and just &#039;talk garden&#039;, we will watch (are watching) sytems get put into place which directly impact our ability to be self-sufficient and to live in harmony with natural systems. There is a systematic corporate/political/economic war on permaculture that we cannot ignore. Political activism and discussing/finding alternatives must be part of our work or ultimately our gardens will do little to save us from ourselves. 

I love the Bill Mollison quote that Thomas recently emailed me:

&quot;If you think you can be just a gardener, you&#039;ve got your head in the sand and your arse up in the air waiting to have it kicked by the seed companies.&quot;

Economic and political systems are just as much part of permaculture design as chicken tractors and trellises. And getting wars OUT of our design is more than worthy of our efforts.

Same goes for our need to change the focus of educational institutions. These need to begin real education - practical education appropriate for our present circumstances, which includes teaching people not only about on-the-ground work, but also educating people in economic and political aspects so we can learn to create a framework that fosters the growth of on-the-ground permaculture systems, rather than undermining it every step of the way as it does now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to labour the point, but this is a perfect example of how NOT getting political impacts on permaculturists:</p>
<p><a href="http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/02/democracy-for-sale-by-the-corporate-citizen/" rel="nofollow">http://permaculture.org.au/2010/02/02/democracy-for-sale-by-the-corporate-citizen/</a></p>
<p>Although the presidency seems to be little more than a figurehead, it seems sure that there is now next to no chance for anyone to become president who intends to do the right thing. If a candidate intends to work against the corporate, globalised model, billions of dollars to finance the campaign of a more corporate-friendly industry puppet (like oily Bush duo were) will put a stop to it.</p>
<p>If we stand by and do nothing, and just &#8216;talk garden&#8217;, we will watch (are watching) sytems get put into place which directly impact our ability to be self-sufficient and to live in harmony with natural systems. There is a systematic corporate/political/economic war on permaculture that we cannot ignore. Political activism and discussing/finding alternatives must be part of our work or ultimately our gardens will do little to save us from ourselves. </p>
<p>I love the Bill Mollison quote that Thomas recently emailed me:</p>
<p>&#8220;If you think you can be just a gardener, you&#8217;ve got your head in the sand and your arse up in the air waiting to have it kicked by the seed companies.&#8221;</p>
<p>Economic and political systems are just as much part of permaculture design as chicken tractors and trellises. And getting wars OUT of our design is more than worthy of our efforts.</p>
<p>Same goes for our need to change the focus of educational institutions. These need to begin real education &#8211; practical education appropriate for our present circumstances, which includes teaching people not only about on-the-ground work, but also educating people in economic and political aspects so we can learn to create a framework that fosters the growth of on-the-ground permaculture systems, rather than undermining it every step of the way as it does now.</p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-41130</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 13:47:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-41130</guid>
		<description>Most of the people in this comment thread sound like they could care less, but for those that do, the first attempt at a citizen&#039;s arrest of Blair has been made:

http://www.arrestblair.org/war-crimes-reports</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of the people in this comment thread sound like they could care less, but for those that do, the first attempt at a citizen&#8217;s arrest of Blair has been made:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.arrestblair.org/war-crimes-reports" rel="nofollow">http://www.arrestblair.org/war-crimes-reports</a></p>
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		<title>By: Craig Mackintosh</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-40977</link>
		<dc:creator>Craig Mackintosh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-40977</guid>
		<description>Oh, Thomas - be careful! You risk delving even deeper into root causes, and will attract even more ire than we already have on this post! ;)  We have to stick to band-aid treatment of symptoms only, it seems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, Thomas &#8211; be careful! You risk delving even deeper into root causes, and will attract even more ire than we already have on this post! <img src='http://permaculture.org.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />   We have to stick to band-aid treatment of symptoms only, it seems.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Fischbacher</title>
		<link>http://permaculture.org.au/2010/01/26/a-bounty-for-blairs-arrest/#comment-40976</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Fischbacher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 18:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://permaculture.org.au/?p=2421#comment-40976</guid>
		<description>Craig,

Ad &quot;Would you call a U.S. or U.K. soldier fighting against Hitler’s armies a ‘murderer’??&quot;

I would say that this actually depends a lot on his conduct during war. Yes, there is something like &quot;illegal orders&quot;, which must not be obeyed. It all boils down to the question: Did the soldier commit crimes during war, either on his own, or by executing orders which were illegal, and where it can be reasonably expected that he should have been able to see them for what they are? (Here, things are complicated by the military&#039;s &quot;need to know&quot; principle. And this, precisely, is the reason why I personally won&#039;t work with them: If they, for strategic reasons, withhold part of the information from me I would need in order to find out whether a particular job may, in the bigger scheme of things, be in conflict with my ethical principles, I simply cannot make that decision whether or not to do it.)

The German army is somewhat aware of these tricky issues. Soldiers learn (or at least: in theory should learn) during their training when to *not* follow orders. 

It is, however, somewhat interesting to note that even in the Third Reich, the Nazis respected individual soldiers&#039; decisions not to take part in their extermination programs.

The tricky issue is that there is a world of a difference between two concepts of &quot;disobedience&quot;: We generally associate the term with &quot;misbehaving&quot;. In my view, this is seriously wrong, and actually a major problem of our &quot;western culture&quot;, as there is a second concept of &quot;disobedience&quot;, which is rooted in good conduct. This &quot;I will, with all due respect, choose not obey this order, for I cannot reconcile it with my own principles and my conscience&quot; is an extremely powerful position. I sometimes get the impression that in the so-called &quot;civilized&quot; world, authorities have a strong interest in obfuscating this immensely important point. It is just so much easier to stigmatize anyone who won&#039;t obey your orders as a &quot;misbehaving troublemaker&quot;. That way, those in power can so easily avoid having to enter dialogue with those who actually may have a very valid point.

Maybe I should write up a few notes about Gandhi...?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Craig,</p>
<p>Ad &#8220;Would you call a U.S. or U.K. soldier fighting against Hitler’s armies a ‘murderer’??&#8221;</p>
<p>I would say that this actually depends a lot on his conduct during war. Yes, there is something like &#8220;illegal orders&#8221;, which must not be obeyed. It all boils down to the question: Did the soldier commit crimes during war, either on his own, or by executing orders which were illegal, and where it can be reasonably expected that he should have been able to see them for what they are? (Here, things are complicated by the military&#8217;s &#8220;need to know&#8221; principle. And this, precisely, is the reason why I personally won&#8217;t work with them: If they, for strategic reasons, withhold part of the information from me I would need in order to find out whether a particular job may, in the bigger scheme of things, be in conflict with my ethical principles, I simply cannot make that decision whether or not to do it.)</p>
<p>The German army is somewhat aware of these tricky issues. Soldiers learn (or at least: in theory should learn) during their training when to *not* follow orders. </p>
<p>It is, however, somewhat interesting to note that even in the Third Reich, the Nazis respected individual soldiers&#8217; decisions not to take part in their extermination programs.</p>
<p>The tricky issue is that there is a world of a difference between two concepts of &#8220;disobedience&#8221;: We generally associate the term with &#8220;misbehaving&#8221;. In my view, this is seriously wrong, and actually a major problem of our &#8220;western culture&#8221;, as there is a second concept of &#8220;disobedience&#8221;, which is rooted in good conduct. This &#8220;I will, with all due respect, choose not obey this order, for I cannot reconcile it with my own principles and my conscience&#8221; is an extremely powerful position. I sometimes get the impression that in the so-called &#8220;civilized&#8221; world, authorities have a strong interest in obfuscating this immensely important point. It is just so much easier to stigmatize anyone who won&#8217;t obey your orders as a &#8220;misbehaving troublemaker&#8221;. That way, those in power can so easily avoid having to enter dialogue with those who actually may have a very valid point.</p>
<p>Maybe I should write up a few notes about Gandhi&#8230;?</p>
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